In The Clouds, Aristophanes portrays Socrates as a foolish philosopher. However, Plato depicts him as a thoughtful one in The Republic. Just and Unjust speeches argue over the best way to teach Pheidippides in The Thinkery. In the second play, a boy named Thrasymachus debates Socrates. Both arguments are about justice and injustice. Unjust Speech, however, advocates injustice in The Clouds, while Socrates, advocates justice in The Republic, wins. The two arguments share many similarities, including rhetoric and conviction. Both sides use similar techniques to win the argument.
Both sides of the conflict have used anecdotes to refute their opponents’ arguments. Unjust Speech uses anecdotes to support his arguments in The Clouds. He claims that Heracles is linked to natural hot springs. Since cold baths are associated with Just Speech’s claim that “cold baths make men cowardly and evil” (Clouds 1046) and that they cannot be unjust. Unjust Speak then declares the spending of time in the marketplace as not being wrong. Unjust Speech asks Just Speech for anecdotal examples by asking: “For whom has being moderate ever resulted in anything positive?” Refute me and tell who by speaking up (Clouds 1061-1062). Just Speech responds by naming Peleus. He was the one who won a sword for being righteous from Hephaestus. Unjust Speech argues that Peleus ended up unhappy because his wife left him (Clouds 1064-1069). In The Republic Socrates uses anecdotal examples to refute Thrasymachus. Socrates’ response to Thrasymachus, who accuses him of being intentionally illogical: “If we searched for gold, then we would not give way to one another, ruining our chances to find it. So, don’t imagine that we, when seeking justice, a matter more valuable than a large amount of gold would be so foolish as to compromise and be less serious in bringing this to light.” (Republic 336) He also tells a fictional story where Thrasymachus, when asked to calculate the value of 12, refuses to accept answers that contain an arithmetic formula equal to 12. (Republic 333b), to prove his standards. These anecdotes help Unjust Speech, Socrates and others to make their points in a concise, appealing and accessible way. Just Speech needs to demonstrate that marketplaces and hot baths are unjust. Being “bugged” is also terrible (Clouds 1084). If he does not succeed, he will lose. Thrasymachus is required to show that justice simply means “the benefit of the strongest” (Republic 339). It is implied that both characters are aware of the burdens they carry, since they become visibly agitated and emotionally invested in their arguments. Just Speech begins The Clouds by expounding all the virtues and benefits of justice. Unjust Speech is able to respond to each of his attacks as Just Speech’s replies diminish in frequency and length. Just Speech, upon realizing that everyone has been “buggered”, reacts by throwing his cloak to the ground and fleeing, clearly upset by this newfound discovery (Clouds 1102 – 1104). Unjust Speech on the other side is calm, level-headed and collected. In The Republic, Thrasymachus is also described as being “hunched like a beast” and “flinging” himself “as if [Socrates] were to be torn to pieces” when he enters the debate (Republic 336). Thrasymachus does not refute Socrates logically. Instead, he uses ad hominems in order to prove the argument. Thrasymachus seems like a child who is angry and can’t really be taken as seriously. Socrates wins again because he is rational and calm. Just Speech, Thrasymachus, and others have more challenging tasks to prove their critics wrong than to refute criticisms. Their high-strung responses lead to a breakdown of their arguments.
Just Speech’s argument that injustice will lead to being “buggered” is not convincing because Thrasymachus does not truly believe it. Just Speech says that injustice leads to “buggered” in The Clouds. Unjust Speech responds by asking, “And what evil will befall him if he is buggered?” (Clouds, 1085). Just Speech is unable to provide a satisfactory response. He insists on being “buggered”, but cannot explain why. He should have been able to give reasons why he thought being “buggered”, was so terrible. Unjust Speech demonstrates that different people are bugged. Just Speech learns that most people suffer from mental illness, yet don’t show any signs of it. He adopts the mentality of the herd and throws his cloak down, screaming “I’m leaving [the debauchees]!” Just Speech had never been against injustice in a moral sense. Instead, just speech was averse to injustices, fearing the consequences. So, once those consequences were milder than he expected, Just Speech changed his mind. In The Republic, Thrasymachus is also more concerned with the consequences of injustice than his own moral values. He claims that “injustice pays” (Republic, 348c), so people should seek out injustice because it is more profitable. Socrates prods him to admit that “the unjust person [is] bad and unlearned” (Republic 35c). He agrees but blushes. This shows that he believes in injustice intellectually, but not emotionally. Thrasymachus’ refusal to challenge Socrates is another example. “I don’t want to irritate the men here,” he says (Republic 352b). Thrasymachus would have no concern for harming other people or their opinions if he truly believed that committing injustices was his goal. However, these examples show he is still bound by justice. Just Speech as well as Thrasymachus are both defeated in their arguments since they cannot fully defend their opinions.
Socrates, as well as Unjust Speech, use anecdotes to argue their points. However this technique is not always reliable and comprehensive. This tactic is effective in calming their opponents as they are unable discredit these evidences. Just Speech as well as Thrasymachus must prove the defendant’s guilt, which can be a very difficult task. Due to their emotional outbursts they are at a disadvantage and Socrates wins the argument. Thrasymachus and Just Speech both lose because they do not believe in their values. The reader is led to believe that not all things are black and white.
